What Happens When You're On the Other Side of the Glass Ceiling with Cindy Constable

Morning, everybody. Dr Robyn McKay here and welcome to this week's episode of Mindset Rx. It is your place to be if you're an emotionally intelligent leader and you're ready to set the tone for a positive, purposeful and productive week. And it's Thanksgiving week here in the US, but it's always a good time to give some gratitude and appreciation for our lives, our hearts, our careers, our families, our communities, and so on. So I always say that gratitude is the first cause of all good things. So I wanna encourage everybody to take a little bit of time today, just as we get started, to come into a place of gratitude. So like I do every week, let's go ahead and just take a second and unplug from everything else, just make sure that you're giving yourself this time and space to listen. Even if you happen to be multitasking, just setting your intention to pay attention on purpose, right here, right now. Put your hand on your heart for just a second and take a deep breath in. I always close my eyes, unless, of course, I'm driving and then of course I don't. So just breathe in and breathe out. Breathe in love and gratitude, and breath out everything that doesn't serve you. And just do that a couple more times and pull your shoulders down and back... And now we have arrived.

I wanna welcome everybody. And I have a special guest today. You'll see a split-screen, of course. I've got my friend and colleague, Cindy Rodriguez... I just said your husband's name, Constable, sorry about that.

Cindy Constable: It's all good.

I was looking at your beautiful face. I haven't seen you in person for so long... Or virtually in person for so long 'cause you've been travelling and you're the entrepreneurs who are travelling around the world right now. I know you're back home in Florida for the holidays. So it's good to have you here. I wanted to share with everybody a little bit about Cindy and why I thought it was important to have her join us this week. So Cindy is in the business of helping leaders break the mould. She is the co-founder of RGIC, an agency that is focused on the powerful world of content marketing using major publications. To date, RGIC has helped over 2000 entrepreneurs become contributors to over 100 of the largest populations. They've taught companies how to implement content marketing strategies and tactics that create more engagement, build a stronger online presence and increase sales. She's also a featured contributor with entrepreneur.com, CEOWORLD, and Addicted 2 Success, among a lot of others. She's an editor for the Good Men Project and has delivered a TEDx talk. And I consider Cindy one of my dear friends and colleagues in this online space, and I'm so honoured that you're here with us.

But let me just set the stage for this. A couple of weeks ago, I produced a podcast and LinkedIn live on the topic of "What's hot and what's not in leadership." And I was speaking specifically around tech, healthcare, fintech, just whatever is going on in the world, especially for women leaders. And I posted on LinkedIn just a question to my colleagues, like, "What's going on in your world? What are you seeing coming now and in the future?" And Cindy, you had something really important, impactful to say. So I wanna welcome you to the show and maybe you can just kick things off with your response to my query about what's hot and what's not in leadership now and in 2022.

Absolutely. Thanks, Robyn, I'm excited to be here. Yeah, we're currently home. Normally we're globe-trotting around the world, but we're home for the holidays. So I thought your question was good, and this is kind of a topic that comes up every year, "What are we gonna see in the new year? What are the business trends? What are the leadership trends? What are the fashion trends?" All the things. And for me, what I thought was gonna be poignant, especially with the ushering in of a new age and all of the work that lightworkers are doing on the planet today is like, what next? What happens above the glass ceiling? 'Cause there's a lot of talk and a lot of content around climbing the ladder, breaking the glass ceiling, getting a seat at the table. Depending on whether you're in a job or if you're entrepreneurship, everyone's striving for that seat at the table.

Then for me, what I think is important is, well, what happens then? Now that we've busted through and we have the seat, what do we do now? What does that look like? And especially from my vantage point, being a woman of colour, what does that look like for me? 'Cause obviously my journey to that seat is different than would your journey be, and the ways in which I can continue to make waves or disrupt the status quo is going to be different. So that was to me what was really gonna be a topic of conversation going forward.

I am so glad that you brought that forward and it really resonated with me. One of the things that I've said when I work with woman leaders who are mostly at the VP level and above, but a lot of them will come in when they get their seat, when they've gotten their promotion... In fact, I remember where I even got this phrase, a woman in tech called me the day she got her promotion to vice president, and she said, "Robyn, I just got promoted. I need your help because I wanna use my seat at the table for good." And so she was very purposeful about what she wanted to do there, and yet there is a risk that we run when we get our seats at the table. Now you're a member of the club.

Yeah, you're inside.

And you're no longer... You're an insider, and it changes things. It changes your psychology. It changes your relationships. It changes your relationship to power and privilege. It also changes your relationship to the people who used to be... And they're still your colleagues, but they're at a different level, so you have different responsibilities. Can you... I wanna just back up just a second because I wanna give context for why you are specifically concerned about this from your own vantage point with your education background, training and expertise. Can you just share a little bit about where you came from so that our listeners can get that context?

Yeah, so I spent 28 years in the corporate and government finance arena. So you know, Master's degree, I was a finance officer. When I retired from the city, I had been in government finance for, gosh, almost 20 years at that point. So I was at the table at that point in my career for many years before I retired. And the climb there throughout the years is very different. Finance happened to be a very male-dominated industry. I started out in the brokerage world, extremely male-dominated industry. And at my entrance into that world, my manager at the time had told me that I needed to basically use that I was a good-looking woman and my sex appeal to get business, that I needed to shorten my skirt and show some cleavage and work that on the golf course.

Okay, I have to raise my hand.

Could you imagine? I'm just 25 and I'm like, "I'm sorry, what? You want me to do what?"

My head's about to explode here, and I know that most women have stories that are similar to yours, and that's not to dilute yours at all, but let's give context too. So, what year? We're not talking about 1983. What year?

No, it was 1996.

Okay, '96, you're 25 and you're getting told that you need to use sex appeal and... Alright.

Yeah, and he in fact told me... He had called me in his office and asked me if I knew why he hired me. And I was like, "Oh, because I almost scored perfect on the Series 7." And he was like, "No, I didn't know that." And I'm like, "Oh, okay." And he said, "I hired you because you're a looker and men are gonna throw their money at you."

Oh, oh, okay...

And so here... At this point, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I've done all this to be smart and successful, and you hired me 'cause I'm pretty?" So it was like, "Congratulations on your face." I'm sorry, what? Which kicked off a long career of those types of comments.

And I'm really... I'm reflecting, because you and I are contemporaries. We're about the same age, and so that was '95, '96, that was before the sexual harassment awareness movement really came into play.

Absolutely.

That was a couple of years later, and you and I were in our own ways at the fore of that, in fact, I remember going to my human resources officer at the company I was working with, they were delivering sexual harassment training and I was like, "Do you think we could add awareness to this, because otherwise what are we doing here?" And they were very responsive...

Yeah. The once a year required training, which started out as bi-annual required training.

Right, right.

Once every two years you watched a video of some overt sexual behaviour.

Right.

And you're like, "That's not how it happens. What are we doing here?"

No, no, so flash forward, when you left your leadership, your seat at the table, what level were you at and how much were you... I wanna just give some dollar amounts too. What... I know I said that so inarticulately, but you get my point. What was your level and how much were you responsible for?

I was senior management at that time. It was... I reported to the Assistant City Manager, and so there was one position between me and the top. So I was as high as I was gonna get 'cause there's only one person who can occupy that seat. I was making over six figures at that time in my career, benefits package, all of the things. And in government, you don't have stock options, but you have a deferred comp plan that they put money in. So all the typical things, just from the government side. And things were still not great at that time. If you were in leadership and you were adamant about a point, you were labelled as aggressive. And that happens if you're a woman, it happens even more so, that trope of being the angry Latina. Meanwhile, I had witnessed my boss slamming his hand on the table, screaming, throwing the chalk at the board, and that was all impassioned. If I held to my point and refuse to back down, I am angry and I am not a team player, and all of those things. So it's like I had fought to get my seat of the table, but I had to be very judicious in how I used that seat at the table.

I was a consummate learner of communication and language and body language and intonation and all of the things that go into communicating a point, because I had to be, because I had to ensure that not only did I help my cisgendered, heterosexual, white, male counterparts feel comfortable before I could levy my point, I couldn't come across as aggressive. I couldn't come across as overbearing. I had to really, really parse my words, but do it in such a way that I didn't offend, I didn't make someone feel uncomfortable, but I also needed to be heard. So it was this dance of, how do I bring to their attention the faux pas that are happening in our organization or in our community without igniting the shame, blame, uncomfortable feelings that someone might feel if they've had a misstep. So it was a constant, constant battle and of... In the world, we're told like, "Screw what people think of you. Just do what you wanna do." Well, that's great, except for I can't do that, because also government perception, I'm a senior official, so I can't even post something on my Facebook page if I want to without drawing ire from the community.

So it was a constant battle of almost shrinking who I am and what I have to say, but trying to get a point across, but in the most meek and sheepish way possible so as not to upset the apple cart too much. It's like, "So how do we disrupt the status quo if I have to protect and preserve the status quo in order to maintain my seat at the table?" Because the threat of that seat going away was ever present. Like, if you make somebody uncomfortable, you're not gonna be invited to the next meeting.

You know, Cindy, this is such a compelling conversation, it reminds me of the episode of The Mindset Rx that I did on the Harvard Business Review article earlier this year. The title of that was "Stop Telling Women That They Have the Impostor Syndrome". And the thesis of that article is illustrated in your point here, which is that the system and structure that you're living in sets up the conditions for those who are not of the majority to feel like an imposter. As you describe your experience, I'm curious, what was your experience with the impostor syndrome?

Yeah, I constantly question whether or not I even belonged there. And throughout my career on the climb to that seat, I had done a lot of things to ensure that I assimilated as much as possible, including taking my curly hair and putting it back in a bun the majority of the time, so that it was up and away and not considered ethnic in any way. I'm multi-lingual, but ensuring that I speak English very articulately without any hint of a Spanish accent, so as not to draw the criticism over my command of the language, thereby insinuating that I must be not as smart as someone else. Which the contrary, we all know is true, the more languages you speak, the more of your brain that you use. But in this country, in particular, I can't speak for other countries, 'cause I haven't lived there, but in this country in particular, we tend to frown upon people who speak English with an accent.

It's some of that crazy nationalism that we have going on in our country. But, so just understanding that I was constantly questioning whether I had done enough to get there. And knowing in the position I was in, in the senior official position over... Controlling the finances of the entire organization, I knew what my counterparts in the same positions made. And so knowing that for decades I am...

Me and the other women, so it was not just me, were paid much less for the same level of authority than our white male counterparts. And making the fight to improve that over the years and having to make the case and constantly... It was a battle of constant like, "Am I doing the right thing? I don't wanna do anything to risk my position, because if I'm ousted for upsetting the apple cart, then I can't help anybody behind me. But if I assimilate too much, now that I'm inside, I'm still cutting off opportunity for the people behind me, 'cause now I've just shown them that... Am I being a sell-out? Have I just adopted the way of my oppressor so that I don't get kicked out? So impostor syndrome is very real."

Very real. And the experience I think that you bring in, I think a lot of our listeners are going to relate to in some way, understand in others, and hopefully be enlightened and have their eyes open to the experiences that are going on behind the scenes. Because not... It's... What I said recently was, it's like Ginger Rogers said about Fred Astaire, she said, "I can do everything he does except backwards in high heels."

And that sounds... That sounds so glamorous. But when you think about the psychology, the ongoing chronic stress that you would have in order to just show up at your work every day, is it any wonder that right now we're in the middle of the great resignation? And there are women who are... And other people too, but there are women who are leaving these leadership position in droves. In fact, one of the companies that I'm working with now and into 2022 is real concerned about... Yeah, at every level, people are leaving, but the ones who really rock the boat, who really are a blow to the organization is when women leave and women of colour leave. It is one of the most challenging things, they're telling me, for the people who stay. So...

Yeah.

I don't have... Listen as usual, we don't have any like how to do things...

Right. I don't have a solution, yeah... [laughter]

But I think that knowledge and awareness is one of those places that we can operate at now, so let's flash forward to today, because you've been out of that field for a while. I know that you're coaching people who are in those spaces just as I am, and that's one of our points of intersection here. From your vantage point now, what are some of the things you would have told your past self, who was sitting at the table? How would you support her?

Well, one, I would have probably told a former version of myself that you didn't have to stay as long as you did. And I left in 2018, and in large part by the support of my husband, who was a lifetime entrepreneur, and he was like, "Screw that place. Whatever." And I had not been... I had worked all those years, right, I'd done all the right things, and the blood, sweat and tears that had gone into that. But I would just reassure myself that it's okay, that you can do something different, and you can be successful in a different way, and life doesn't have to look how anybody else has described it, envisioned it for you. And I would just hold that space for me to really feel into that because the pressure of leaving and doing something different, and...

I think part of that, at least for me, was our identity can get wrapped up in what we do for a living. Especially in this country. The first question that someone will ask you is, "So what do you do?" Why? Because we're about to assign the level of respect to you that we believe you deserve based on your given job title. Based on how you describe yourself. And so the thought of no longer being like in charge... My kids when they were little used to say, "Mummy has a big job. She has a big job. She talks to the mayor. [chuckle] She goes to the White House." And yes, it was a big job. And I loved being able to see the fruit of what I did play out in the community that I was blessed to serve. And as hard as it was, it was also like a blessing. I got to do a lot of amazing things in my career. But looking back at the level of stress, like that you mentioned, that I undertook during that time, was tremendous. And of course, there's still healing that has to come from that.

You do work with the healing the corporate trauma, which is real. It's very real because that lives in your body, and you've now built an identity around that trauma in order to either preserve yourself or preserve others or whatever the case is. But just telling myself that, "You have permission. Give yourself permission to do something different," 'cause I didn't give myself permission because I had made it. I literally had a corner office with a view of downtown. That's literally where I sat. Windows on two sides. So it's kind of funny that the joke is, "I'll get the corner office with the view." I had that. And then a personal assistant, and the staff, and all the things. But it really wasn't fulfilling to my soul because I couldn't bring my whole self to work every day. I had to bring the version of me that was palatable to those who got to decide whether or not I could stay. And I wanna only be places where I am embraced in my entirety. And that no one else ever gets to decide whether I stay or go, except for me.

You could see, if you were listening to the podcast, I've got probably tears in my eyes, just to give you... It's just that just touched my heart so much. Because when I'm listening to you Cindy, I'm thinking about you. I'm thinking about other people, regardless of gender, who have had these experiences of being in that blood, sweat and tears, soul-draining, soul-sucking job. From the outside looking in, you've made it. Your kids are proud of you. You've got the big job. You get to go to DC to the White House and so on. And yet inside, your soul is dying. And it occurs to me, to go back to our question is, now that you've broken through the glass ceiling, now, what do you do? Do you propagate the status quo? Or do you do something different? There's a concept that's called Stockholm syndrome. And it's where the traumatized... I always think about... This is... I'm so dating myself. But I remember as a little girl when Patty Hearst was kidnapped. I don't know if you remember that story.

Yes, I remember that story. [laughter]

I was so compelled. I was like... I don't even know how old I was. I was old enough to know about it. And I was so compelled by it. But she actually took on... She took the side of her captor.

Of her captor, yeah.

And I think that... I'm not saying that everybody who... Every woman who's sitting at the table in corporate land has Stockholm syndrome. But there is kind of a level of, "I'm going to be shoulder to shoulder with these people who even though I'm enduring this ongoing, even microtrauma," the daily micro traumas that we experience, "I'm gonna keep going because of the outcomes that I'm able to produce," as though the ends justify means.

Right.

So it occurs to me to answer our question about now that we're here, now what? I think that from my end, healing corporate trauma, healing the trauma and making sure that you are fully you internally and you bring your best self to the table... I don't know if I have to bring my whole self to the table every day, I don't know if people actually wanna see me first thing in the morning with my bed head and...

But I do want to be able to share my gifts, talents, my contributions in the best way possible, if that makes sense. So I think that that's my perspective on that. And obviously everybody's gonna have a different take on bringing... How much of yourself you bring to work. But to your point, you shouldn't have to hide who you are, either.

Correct. And I think for me, what that means coming from a marginalized community, and I think the bringing your whole self to work from any of your marginalized communities... And I get it. As being a member of a marginalized community, mimicking the patterns of the dominant community is something you think you have to do. Because you're like, "Okay, well, they're not seeing me, hearing me or doing any... I'm not making any headway. So let me mimic those ways so that I can be seen, heard, felt." You know what, if you think on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, the base levels of what people need before you can be more advanced, and...

Yeah, you need to be safe. You need to feel safe. And the safest way to be in, I'm doing air quotes, when in a "foreign community" is to look like them, talk like them, be as much like them, even if you look or are completely different from them. So, yes. And I wanna take time out here because I am cisgendered, I am white, I am female. I have a lot of power and educated, and I know that about myself. And I think it's important to say I'm an educated white girl. So I have a different relationship with power than my sisters and brothers who are further from the centre of privilege and power. I will just say, I think that people who look like me are part of the problem, not... You can see me treading water here a little bit... But... So I'll back up and just tell a story. I taught multicultural counselling as a graduate student at the University of Kansas. And I taught it with my mentor, Barb Carr, who's also white and educated. And so we had two white girls teaching multicultural counselling.

The hardest people for us to teach were the people who look like us, because they were the ones who were saying, "I don't see what the problem is. Why do we have to keep having these conversations. I don't have that experience." And you can see their level of awareness around distance from power and privilege. So for my people, the people who look like I do, I think that we have a special responsibility because we have a voice that other people... They do have, but they're not able to necessarily use it in the same way that we can. I said recently to my neighbour who's Latina, she's a leader, she's got all kinds of things going on in the D&I space, and I told her about the podcast that I did on stop telling women that we have the impostor syndrome. And I said, I really had a lot to say to my white male colleagues who are often sitting at the centre of power and privilege. And she said, "And you can do that and I can't."

I... 100%... 100%. You can do it and I can't. I don't look like you. I don't present... I'm not white-passing. I'm not even close. Afro-Latina and indigenous. I can't be further from the centre. And of course, I feel people's briers already getting up, because people really struggle to have these conversations and acknowledge power and privilege. And we all experience privilege in different ways. In my own community, in the Latin community, I would have privilege because I'm able to speak I'm able to pass around. And you may have something valuable to say that my community will reject based on what you look like because of the experiences they've had with people who present like you.

Yeah. I will say that...

And so it's... We all possess privilege in some way, so whoever's... If you're hearing the word privilege and you're trying to make it a pejorative term, it is not at a pejorative. If we can't acknowledge where we sit in the hierarchy... And for those who try to pretend that this country was not built by and for the white man, then you didn't read the Constitution because it absolutely was. And even white women got the right to vote before someone like me. It was years later that someone who looks like me could then enjoy that privilege. So when we talk about the foundations of the country and epigenetics and all of those good things, all of that is real. And my ability to hold to account someone who sits closer to the centre of privilege is not the same. And yeah, so that's where we can lend our privilege and lend our power to other people. It's kind of like if you think in the branding space or visibility. I do large publications. And so someone writing for Entrepreneur or success.com or Fast Company, you are borrowing the good brand visibility of that publication. It automatically elevates you because you're writing for this large publication.

In the space of diversity, equity, and inclusion, and social justice, the same holds true. I can borrow from Robyn some form of privilege or elevation of status, if Robyn is willing to say, "Hey, here's the thing... My friend Cindy, this, this, this." Or even more importantly, Robyn, is willing to stand in the gap when there's an issue. When she notices that her counterpart is prickling up, she can call it out, and say, "Hey, hey, hey, wait a second. This is what we're not gonna do." I can't say, "Hey, hey, wait a second."

No, you can't. And we wanna get to a point... And I really, truly, with all my heart believe that this is where we are headed, when we talk about the long vision...

Oh, 100%.

This is what we're talking about, is that the elevation of consciousness and the shifts that we're making and the inroads that we're making are going to have lasting effects on our generation, but on the coming generations as well, in terms of how we use our seats at the table for good. Every single one of us. And I think that also using your seat at the table for good, now that you've got it, means... For my group for... And I can't... I'm aware what I'm doing here, which is I'm speaking for white, straight women who are married and educated and have these seats at the table. It's... From my perspective, it's my group's responsibility to educate and to speak and to use our voices because we can.

And then to yield power and privilege to open doors and say, "Yes." Not to... Just to acknowledge that it's there, and we have a responsibility to make sure that that shifts. That's one thing that I know that my group can do. What occurs to you as I say that? And I have to say... I just have to say, my group... I'm using air quotes. "My group". That's... It's such a generalization and I'm aware of that. But I wanna also be succinct in terms of actually what I think.

Right. And understanding that the points of intersectionality are many. And so no group is a monolith. Just like, I happen to be Afro-Latina which... I'm from Puerto Rico. And so this is an Afro-Latina community. Some people don't even like to use the term Latina in our world, or Hispanic depending upon where your ethnicity comes from. All these things. So acknowledging the intersectionalities, and no group is a monolith, including the cisgender, heterosexual, white male, it's not a monolith either.

Right, absolutely.

But speaking in generalities is how we're gonna move forward, because the problems that we have wouldn't persist if the majority of those groups didn't act and perpetuate certain behaviours. And so, yes, everyone wants to see themselves as an exception, which is part of the problem. But I... Holding the space for people who don't look like you to move into those spaces, and then to be able to maneuver in those spaces. 'Cause it's one thing to get in, it's something else to be able to maneuver that space in the same way, and understanding that even for myself, being... I speak fluent English, I have an advanced degree as well, I'm married, I have intersectionalities that afford me some privilege that others don't have. You know, understanding our LGBTQIA community is an issue.

So the more intersectionalities you have that take you the further away from the centre of privilege, the more challenging it becomes. And for myself, because I'm a member of marginalized community, what I wanna say is it does not absolve me from the work. It does not absolve me from understanding internalized bigotry or misogyny or patriarchy or any of those things that I may have internalized through my lifetime because I had to assimilate in order to survive. I have to peel back those layers and I have to look at my language around ableism and gender and all of these things, because if I continue to perpetuate the way I see things and use my privilege as it exists, then I'm also part of the problem.

So you open a door for me, and then I can open a door for people who maybe look like me but don't sound like me, in other words, they are brown but they have an accent, or they are brown, have an accent, and they are not cisgender. And so understanding... Or they're brown, have an accent, not cisgender, and in a wheelchair, or deaf or blind, that... Understanding that, so many intersectionalities, but yes, the closer you are to that centre of privilege, I feel like the greater responsibility you have to prop the door open. Don't repair the glass ceiling, maybe put a [chuckle] door in or just a hole that people could just walk up and down through. And then also, you have to be the hostess with the mostest when you're there, by...

It's really true, it's...

Turning around...

It's really true.

And helping them navigate.

Being the...

The champion.

Hostess with the mostest. That's the tea party that we're bringing in, the little girl tea party. So there's a lot of work, we know that that's true. I want us to... Will you do some future visioning with me as we end our...

Absolutely.

So I wanna just go forward in time, let's go to, what year do you wanna go to? 2025?

Sure.

2026? Alright, so let me age myself. Okay, got it, okay. So everyone just go forward in time four years, three years, 2025, 2026. So this will be 40 years, right? No, 30 years after you were told to use your sex appeal. What does your future self have to say? How are things different for her?

My future self says that you would get to embrace all of the assets that you were endowed with. Just like I can't hide what colour my skin is, I can't hide what I look like. And if that is a form of privilege that I possess, because it is very much a form of privilege, then I need to use it to open a door to advance the cause and help someone who doesn't possess the privilege that I possess purely based on my birthright. So it's no different than being born into a certain nation, being born to a certain ethnicity or nationality, like I was also blessed to be born an American, right? What a privilege. I wasn't born in Syria or North Korea. I didn't do anything to earn that, it just is.

And so I would say to my future... Or my future self would say, "Thank you for all of the privilege that I possess, thank you for the awareness of the ways in which I can utilize that privilege, and thank you for always being open to critical feedback from someone who has intersectionalities that are different from mine being able to mirror to me what I'm missing, and to accept that with love and grace and say thank you so much for letting me know that there is a way that I can help that I'm not helping, and then I need to go do the work to make sure that I help. And also understanding that I'm never going to put that burden on that marginalized community to teach me what I need to do different, that I'm going to go do that work, and do it happily, and not do it for a cookie or a star, but because in the collective we are all one anyway. And so I wanna help usher that in in the actual 3D space that we live in."

Beautiful. Cindy, thank you so much for joining us today on Mindset Rx. It's just so thought-provoking, and I always know when I have conversations with you that we're gonna go deep and we're gonna go broad, and we're gonna talk about things that matter in our hearts and our minds and our organizations as well. So thank you so much for being here. I'm Dr Robyn McKay, this is Mindset Rx, and please join us next week. If you are watching the recording or listening to the podcast, reach out and let us know what'd you think of this episode? And if you really loved it, share it with your communities. I think this is the most important thing that we can do to get messages like Cindy's out into the world and to start making ripples and waves as we do the work to shift the spirit and the culture of our organizations. Until next time, see you later.